465. Thoughts on the Darkness in male subs

I have had the pleasure of interacting with some very new Dommes and switches this past week and this topic has popped up a couple of times so I thought it would be good to blog about it.  Some of this will be rehash of earlier posts but I am trying to combine the concepts from a few of them into a singular entry that I hope will be useful or interesting to someone.

The darkness of the desires of male subs can be quite shocking, intimidating, and puzzling to people.  Many of these desires get so intense and full of suffering and cruelty, that others may struggle to make sense of it all.  To an outsider I can imagine that this makes a lot of male subs seem crazy, unreasonable/unrealistic, and even a danger to themselves.  It can be especially concerning since a very high percentage of male subs harbor dark fantasies while only a small percentage of female subs seem to share similar fantasies.  What I have learned is that this doesn’t happen overnight.  It is part of a process.

One of the big contrasts is that a lot more people are familiar with sub women.  While many sub women may have dark fantasies about singular events, very few of them actually picture the same level of darkness as a continuous and ongoing lifestyle.  e.g. She may fantasize about being taken by a man, bound, used, spanked, etc. but these fantasies are often singular and coincide well with the idea/duration of a “scene.”

While many female subs do desire lifestyle D/s, it is frequently far more in line with the cultural history of male dominance in traditional western society.  That is, the husband holds the dominant role and she is the submissive wife.  While he may exert power and control, there is a basic level of respect, love, and care given to her.  This puts a natural limit on the darkness.  The existence of this traditional type of power structure allows for her to embrace and accept her submission in a relatively guilt-free way (the critical eyes are those of feminists, who are by no means the majority of people).

In addition to this, many women have had a lot of opportunities to explore their submissive and kinky side with willing partners in small doses before committing to D/s as a lifestyle.  There is never a shortage of potential partners.  As a sub, they are desirable.  All of these factors contribute to a level of comfort with submission and in turn, a lot of the desires remain in the realm of reasonable and realistic.

Note: I know that this next section does not represent every submissive male.  I am writing it without conditional phrases because it has more impact and I do feel that this represents at least a number of submissive men and their experiences and they are the ones I am trying to explain.

Submissive men experience a completely different road.  The same cultural history that provides peace to sub women creates turmoil for sub men.  From the earliest days that men enter their peer group they are faced with a survival of the fittest power struggle where the alphas struggle for dominance and an eventual hierarchy develops.  Eat or be eaten.  It becomes natural to develop armor to stave off attacks and claws and fangs to launch your own.  The sensitivity that is present in all people becomes buried and hidden from sight.

The desire to submit feels like a perversion.  It is contrary to history and the physical strength provided by genetics.  If dominance is perceived as a display of strength, submission must be a display of weakness.  The societal ideal of masculinity bombards them at every turn.  So many women reinforce this by stating their attraction to strong, take-charge men.  By the time they mature sexually, many men have lost the ability to trust their peers on an emotional level and see their submission as unattractive.

During the early years hey keep their submissive desires secret, hidden from the world.  It festers within them.  Each orgasm they masturbate themselves to based on submissive fantasies leaves them with a sense of shame, guilt, knowledge of their abnormality, and a hopeless wish that they didn’t feel this way.  They can’t talk about it with anyone.  To tell another male would be social death.  To tell another female would lead to rejection and confirmation of his worst fears.

Over time, their gender identity erodes until it finally shatters.  They aren’t a real man.  They feel like they are cursed with a disease that has no cure.  They try to hide it and blend in.  They feel disgusting.  They feel pathetic.  They hate themselves because of what they need.   In many cases, the submissive male will have no opportunity to explore their submission.  Porn becomes their outlet.  If they ache badly enough they may resort to paid services.

This process is the source of the darkness.  The accumulated negative feelings begin to surface in their fantasies.  The shame and guilt lead to an existence of humiliation.  The humiliation isn’t cruel, it’s just an honest and truthful assessment.

The destroyed perception of self foster feelings of being pathetic, disgusting, broken, unwanted, undesirable, and unloved.  These feelings lead to an existence of being degraded, tormented, tortured, denied, and used.  The poor treatment isn’t abuse, because that is how they deserve to be treated.  They seek to be used because that is the only way they can envision someone wanting them.

This is where the darkness comes from.  This is where the fantasies of cruel slavery and servitude stem from.  This is where the fantasies of permanent chastity or castration, intense beatings, being loaned out or sold, strict rules, and a lifestyle of humiliation and degradation grow from.  This is where the fantasies of being used for service and her sexual pleasure with no reciprocation are born.  These are the evolved fantasies that become fetishes through repeated shameful masturbation.

What you will find strange is that these same men will appear completely normal in everyday life.  They have learned to keep their sides separate.  No one who sees them knows their secret.  Inside, the storm has been raging for years.

Another critical aspect is that the lack of self-acceptance of their submission often prevents men from being able to articulate their feelings about it.  Delving into the why forces them to face the negative feelings that shake their sense of self so in many cases they avoid it.  They can’t communicate their submission because they do not understand it.

There are probably people who will read this and feel sympathy and pity for these men.  They may want to wrap them up and protect them and heal them from the damage.  Therein lies the problem.  Most sub men who have reached this state are beyond the point of healing.  They are so convinced that this is who they are that it is nearly impossible to convince them of it otherwise.  In the cases where it works, they most likely have to still be on the younger end of the spectrum and/or it will require years of work to rebuild them.

The other aspect is that many of these sub men do not want to change.  When this has grown into a full-blown fetish, what they desire from D/s is to live a life that matches their feelings.  They want to be seen as shameful, disgusting, pathetic, and perverse creatures but be accepted for who they are.  This is the key psychological point right here:  They achieve peace from being accepted for who they are and what they are. 

Trying to change them will create cognitive dissonance and may give a deeper sense of rejection:  They aren’t okay as they are, so they need to be changed.  This disturbs their understanding of self and actually makes them feel worse about themselves.

The final point I would like to make here is that when a male sub overcomes all of these mental, emotional, and social obstacles and fully embraces his submission, this required of him tremendous strength, courage, and effort.  I don’t know how anyone could see it as weak.

I hope this helps to shed some light on what is sometimes a puzzling topic.


11 thoughts on “465. Thoughts on the Darkness in male subs

  1. Great description of the general pathology of male submissiveness. And I do appreciate your note about narrative impact.

    I’m sure many male subs will see something they recognise in that pathology. If not, they should be asking themselves some deep questions.

    I like the last paragraph. Every domme I’ve known, as a friend or otherwise, has little time for those embroiled in their darkness. It’s the strength of submission that fascinates them and what they wish to nurture.

    Good read, thanks. melody

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Thank you very much, Melody.
      At times I know much of the community gets hung up on the ethics or principles when it comes to dark fantasies. I had hoped with this to give an approximate timeline to show how this process isn’t something that can just be unwritten, nor is it really fair to have it be looked down upon due to the years of suffering involved.

      I do hope that the subs that read this can find aspects that they relate to. A lot of these experiences are shared.

      I enjoyed your post from today as well that gave a nice example of a progression timeline that a lot of subs experience as well in their journey. I will try to comment on it tomorrow.

      Take care.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I look forward to your comments.

        Since I seem to be posting around the issues of consent from a male sub point of view, this post of yours has me thinking about another one covering more controversial positions that I’ve only alluded to.

        The consent discussion is largely driven from a feminist point of view. And as you show here, there’s a massively different path for male and female subs.

        The dark progressions of a male sub often mean that he’s reached the point where he thinks he wants his consent taken from him. This is far from the ideal as promoted in the feminist concepts of consent. I may have to think very carefully how to write such a post 😉

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Thank you, Melody.

          I had never really seen that perspective as being a feminist perspective but that does describe it very well. It reminds me of the sensitivity training all of the students in my district were put through right around the time that sexual harassment became a known word and we learned about date rape. e.g. Just because a guy buys dinner doesn’t mean she has to sleep with him. I know that the consent philosophy gets pounded so hard because the BDSM equivalent is “just because he plays with you doesn’t mean you have to sleep with him or do everything he tells you to.”

          I do think that because male subs end up with so few suitors that they are often willing to toss consent away if/when someone does finally show an interest.

          As for my own experiences, I tend to look at subs as having a “slave capacity” or not. That is, despite what they might say they want, they will either have the capacity to survive/thrive a situation with lost consent or they will not. What makes it hard is that I believe the actual percentage of people who have the slave capacity is far smaller than the number of people that think they want it.

          The other interesting thing is that it is that discrepancy between people who think they want it vs. actually can handle it that keeps this a concern in F/m. When a D/s couple have a functional relationship and call it consensual non-consent or TPE, most everyone is okay with it.

          I look forward to reading what you write. I enjoy controversial posts because they usually try to represent the fringes and special cases that generic posts do not. I think one of the keys for submission is always that it is an evolving state and people’s capacities change as they experience things.

          Take care.


  2. Your writing normally gives me ‘lightbulb’ moments – this one gave me an ‘oh crap, I’m doing it all wrong moment’ 😜 Thank you for sharing this.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. I found this perspective extremely interesting. Even as a female, I’ve always thought of my submissive/slavish tendencies in much the same way you describe the way that male submissive/slaves do. For a modern woman in American culture, admitting to wanting to be dominated outside of the bedroom as well as inside of it can be daunting. True, historically, it was more accepted – and still is in other cultures – but I struggle with the concept of not choosing to be a “strong, independent woman” in all aspects.

    I find this especially relevant with regards to your post, because I also relate to the desire to be humiliated and used to the degree you wrote of. Now you’ve got me wondering if part of that desire does stem from not being what modern society deems proper for a woman. I’m curious whether or not I would feel the same way, if I were in a culture where submission was more normalized. I have to thank you for being so candid! Your statement about seeking to be used, because that’s a pathway to being wanted struck me as also true in my case … despite how it seems counter-intuitive when I also tend to think that more independent women are more desirable to modern sensitivities.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thank you for sharing. I will try to reply to every part of your comment. It may go a bit roundabout and I apologize for that in advance.

      I do know that modern feminist culture does apply some pressure against M/f, as they also are anti-F/m for anything that is not equal 50/50. The strength of this pressure tends to vary by region, with some parts of the country being more accepting of M/f while others are less. What I tell women who get pressured in this way is to remind them that independence also means that you have the choice to act how you want, decide what sort of lifestyle you want to live, and enjoy it.

      There are some odd standards in modern feminist logic. The vast majority of women are still attracted to the “powerful take charge” man. They allow for male dominance in the bedroom. This logic then requires in the vanilla side of things to be his equal. So… you are both supposed to be powerful and take charge, which tends to go against the idea of complimentary roles. In reality, having two uncompromising forces is more likely to end in divorce.

      How this reflects in the F/m realm is also interesting. If you go back a generation, when it was still socially acceptable for the husband to be the primary breadwinner and the wife to accept a supporting complimentary role, one of the overwhelming social fears for a woman was to end up married to a loser, and be stuck supporting someone who is a poor provider and leader. There is a lot of carry-over of this into modern feminist culture. Strong, independent women do not choose men who are complimentary to them, they want strong, independent men that are equal or greater to their standing. e.g. Female doctors will want to marry male doctors (or something of equivalent standing).

      Basically, these views try to torpedo both M/f and F/m.

      From my experiences, most people end up with similar relationship roles to their mothers and fathers. A lot of women that wish to have that complimentary role had half a lifetime of an example to learn from. I don’t think it is fair for people to criticize someone’s choice that has that half a lifetime of learned behavior.

      I do think that social pressure on women to be independent tends to start a bit later for them, when they already have developed some base sense of identity. For men, that social pressure occurs from the first introduction with their peer group and it ends up integrating itself into their base identity. I believe the end result of this is that women have a stronger sense of self that they battle against when faced with the social pressures in adulthood. In the case of (submissive) men this social pressure is always present and so they have to almost destroy themselves to escape it… or at least bury that part far away from societal eyes.

      (Sorry for how roundabout that was in response to your first paragraph)

      As for your second paragraph, I would have to know more about you to understand how it fits to you. As for you wondering about whether any of it is linked to it being taboo, do you find yourself drawn to other acts that bring about feelings of taboos, naughtiness, etc.? e.g. exhibitionism. Being called names like slut, whore, etc.

      I tend to link emotional masochism as being part of our sexuality and sexual identity, but the reasons that it got there may be very deep. While not all emotional masochists have this darkness, the ones who NEED it tend to. When I get to know emotional masochists they usually have one or both of these things that led to it: 1. An explosive, identity shaking singular event that changed them on a core level. 2. A slow but constant erosion of self, eventually carving out the grand canyon. A strong draw for emotional masochists is often to be forced to face the harsh truth but then given a reason as to why they are acceptable. e.g. You are ________, but because you provide _______, I keep you.

      When all of this reaches a sexually integrated state, it’s probably there for good.

      As for cultural submission, this is something that fascinates me because I struggle to empathize with it. Here we are raised to picture ourselves as the King/Queen, Prince/Princess, etc. or someone who will be the hero or heroine and find their way to a lofty status. We aren’t raised to dream about being one of a million anonymous starving peasants or the servant thanklessly scrubbing floors within the castle. We aren’t able to envision being born into a social caste that dictates the ceiling of our potential, and the highest station is to be “head servant,” which still puts you a gigantic tier below the “betters” that your life revolves around serving. In a country where people are treated relatively equally, the thought of that sort of outlook forced upon someone is appalling. However, in that country of equality it also allows us to explore those a role/status by our own free will, and that isn’t all that bad, is it?

      I hope this sort of makes sense. Overall, I do understand that there are pressures against submissive women to not be that way. I didn’t want this post to claim that there weren’t, I just know that from a percentage standpoint, it is a lot easier for much of society to accept the idea of a woman choosing to submit (although the modern feminist thinking may disagree).

      On a similar theme, you might find this post interesting:

      Take care.

      Liked by 1 person

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